Effects loop question. MS paint masterpeices included.

[Kellan]

I'm running my effects in the loop, but am sorta confused by it. Here's why:

I'm playing through a Fender DeVille 4x10 combo 60 watts all tube.
There's a couple of inputs for preamp/effects loop shit:
"Footswitch" obviously for the onboard distortion footswitch. Distortion sounds like shit.
Then there's the "power amp in" input, which I'm guessing is the effects loop input.
And then there's the "preamp out" output (which is a female input), and I'm assuming that's the effects out, that goes to the Channel 1 input and get's processed through the amp after that.


My guitar goes into the distortion, then that goes into my EQ pedal, and then I run that to the "power amp in".
I then run a cable from the "preamp out" to my input.



Here's where I'm confused.
My volume knobs don't work now. There's a master volume and a regular volume, and they both don't do shit now. There's a constant level of volume that I can't control, outside of moving the slider on my EQ up or down, or turning off my EQ pedal.
There's no amplifier volume control.




If I run just my EQ in the loop, and then run my distortion in between the "preamp out" and the input of the amp, the distortion does nothing. I don't know why.






Other than that, the tone is wonderful. But I'd like to be able to mess around with effects positioning and be able to turn my volume up and down.

Am I running my effects loop wrong or something?

[BassPhemy]

You never connect an amp to itself.

You plug your guitar into the main input on the amp. If there is an effects loop on the amp you'll have a cable going:

Effects Send > Pedal > Pedal > Effects Return

I'm not sure that amp even has a loop.

[Kellan]

http://www.fender.com/products/search.p ... 0213201000

Four 10” speakers deliver big, bright tone! Our Hot Rod DeVille 410 sends 60 scorching watts straight into a quartet of 10” Fender Special Design Eminence speakers, courtesy of two 6L6 Groove Tube output tubes and three 12AX7 preamp tubes. Yikes!

Three channels give you a choice of “normal” (with bright switch), “drive” (with gain and master controls) and “more drive” sounds, with additional features including an FX loop, Fender long-spring reverb, external speaker jack, internal variable bias control and two-button, three-function channel select footswitch. The look is pure Fender—chrome panel with vintage pointer knobs, plus black textured vinyl covering and silver grille cloth. Cover included.

[Kellan]

I've never tried to fuck with an effects loop so I have close to no idea what I'm doing when it comes to that.
I'm not a big gear/tech-head.

[BassPhemy]

If anything would work it would be the Preamp Out > Effects In > Out > Power Amp In.

[Ben]

Why are you running it like that? Just run it all in the front end, guitar - dist - eq- all into the input. Bam pow go.

[PABassPlayer]

Why are you running it like that? Just run it all in the front end, guitar - dist - eq- all into the input. Bam pow go.

what he said...and that's a sweet Jackson you got!!!!

[Pfl?yd]

Gain-based effects like EQ, compression, and distortion should NEVER go through an effects loop. Effects loops are for time-based effects like Flange, Delay, Reverb, and Chorus. Put those effects in front of the amp.

And Bassphemy is right, what you are doing is essentially putting your signal into the post-preamp stage of the amp (where there's no signal conversion and, hence, no amplification).

[Jefferino]

Why are you running it like that? Just run it all in the front end, guitar - dist - eq- all into the input. Bam pow go.

what he said...and that's a sweet Jackson you got!!!!

[silverback77]

My guitar goes into the distortion, then that goes into my EQ pedal, and then I run that to the "power amp in".
I then run a cable from the "preamp out" to my input.

You're doing what's called "breaking the normal". In a patch bay at a recording studio, the rows of ins & outs are normalled (connected) to each other either fully, half, or not at all.

Here is Wikipedia's def of normalling:

Patch bays may be half-normal or full-normal, "normal" indicating that the top and bottom jacks are wired together internally. When a patch bay has half-normal wiring, its switching contacts flow through the bottom jacks of the bottom row while connected to the top row; plugging into the output connection will split the signal. If it a patch bay is wired to full-normal, then it includes switching contacts in both rows of jacks.

Your amp's "effects loop" is a half-normalled connection. The pre amp out & power amp in on your amp basically create the effects loop. By going from preamp out to amp input, you are basically running around your volume controls which is why they don't work.

For more great info on amps, check out Aspen Pitman's The Tube Amp Book or head to Groove Tubes website.

[SuicideNote]

I'm trying to figure out why one would want to do that. I have used the preamp out of my Laney before to run directly to my old rack ADA poweramp. It never really sounded as good as just going through the Laney though.

[Kellan]

I got the effects loop figured out.
I don't plan on running it like this, I was just fucking around because I was bored.
That, and I admittedly have never used an effects loop, never really looked into it until last night, so I didn't have much of an idea as to how to run effects in the loop.

[BassPhemy]

Gain-based effects like EQ, compression, and distortion should NEVER go through an effects loop. Effects loops are for time-based effects like Flange, Delay, Reverb, and Chorus. Put those effects in front of the amp.

I've heard people say the exact opposite of what you just said.

Now I'm totally confused.

[silverback77]

Gain-based effects like EQ, compression, and distortion should NEVER go through an effects loop. Effects loops are for time-based effects like Flange, Delay, Reverb, and Chorus. Put those effects in front of the amp.

I've heard people say the exact opposite of what you just said.

Now I'm totally confused.

Words like "never" don't belong in this domain. It all comes down to what sounds best IN YOUR RIG, TO YOUR EARS, FOR YOUR APPLICATION.

The logic behind putting time-base effects in the effects loop (which comes after the preamp stage) is that you're not pre-amping any noise or artifacts added to the signal by the processor. If you break your amp down into a pedal-like signal chain, the input & preamp are like your distortion &/or compression, your eq is (duh) your eq, and your built-in effects (if any) are usually time-based & come right before the power amp section of the amp.

The RULE OF THUMB is: Gain-based effects first, EQ & other tone shapers (whammy, tremolo, etc) second, then time-based effects last. If you use a gate or noise supressor, that should probably go at the end, but I sometimes put it right after my distortions because that's the noisiest thing in the chain & helps to avoid chopping the ends off of delay taps & reverb tails. A wah pedal will sound drastically different before & after the distortion. The sound we're all used to hearing a wah make is with it placed first pedal after the guitar's output, but that may not always be what you want. I find in my bass rig, for instance, that putting the wah AFTER the distortion allows the wah effect to be more pronounced. Before the distortion it sounds much more subtle (not what I'm after).

Just fuck around alot until you hear what you want to hear, take notes or make recordings along the way, and know that you'll be fucking around with your signal chain for the rest of your life. That's part of why this shit is so much fun.

[Kellan]

For the record, I've found that the best tone, in my opinion, comes from having the EQ looped and the distortion in-line.

[ssh]

Gain-based effects like EQ, compression, and distortion should NEVER go through an effects loop. Effects loops are for time-based effects like Flange, Delay, Reverb, and Chorus. Put those effects in front of the amp.

I've heard people say the exact opposite of what you just said.

Now I'm totally confused.

Words like "never" don't belong in this domain. It all comes down to what sounds best IN YOUR RIG, TO YOUR EARS, FOR YOUR APPLICATION.

The logic behind putting time-base effects in the effects loop (which comes after the preamp stage) is that you're not pre-amping any noise or artifacts added to the signal by the processor. If you break your amp down into a pedal-like signal chain, the input & preamp are like your distortion &/or compression, your eq is (duh) your eq, and your built-in effects (if any) are usually time-based & come right before the power amp section of the amp.

The RULE OF THUMB is: Gain-based effects first, EQ & other tone shapers (whammy, tremolo, etc) second, then time-based effects last. If you use a gate or noise supressor, that should probably go at the end, but I sometimes put it right after my distortions because that's the noisiest thing in the chain & helps to avoid chopping the ends off of delay taps & reverb tails. A wah pedal will sound drastically different before & after the distortion. The sound we're all used to hearing a wah make is with it placed first pedal after the guitar's output, but that may not always be what you want. I find in my bass rig, for instance, that putting the wah AFTER the distortion allows the wah effect to be more pronounced. Before the distortion it sounds much more subtle (not what I'm after).

Just fuck around alot until you hear what you want to hear, take notes or make recordings along the way, and know that you'll be fucking around with your signal chain for the rest of your life. That's part of why this shit is so much fun.

[Sir Dan]

Gain-based effects like EQ, compression, and distortion should NEVER go through an effects loop. Effects loops are for time-based effects like Flange, Delay, Reverb, and Chorus. Put those effects in front of the amp.

I've heard people say the exact opposite of what you just said.

Now I'm totally confused.

Well no, he's right kinda.

an effect loop is made to place an effect, after the distortion.
for example Wah, you put it in the effect loop when you don't use a distortion pedal, but if oyu do you put it right after the distortion pedal, usually.

It's the same with all effects, it will make sound differences, so one has to try out, there is no false way.