Panterachat

I've been in many debates on this board with people who feel that electronic instruments are not "real" and "require no talent". I'm not starting that debate again, rather, I'm going to question...

Why, in your personal opinion, is this the case?

What's the REAL difference between striking a single note on a guitar and programming that same note on a sequencer, IF you have the applicable knowledge to understand what that note is, and what should logically follow it according to what kind of sound you're planning to make?

Again, no debate. Your opinion is yours, mine is mine and I didn't start this thread to argue or try to change anyone's mind on anything. I'm simply asking questions here.

I hope someone uses an electronic instrument to lock this thread

croninburg wrote:I hope someone uses an electronic instrument to lock this thread

It's not so much that it's used to make music, but that it's used to make crazy acid trip music.

Pressing a fucking key or button requires no skill. Playing guitar you actually have to fret a live note that you can bend and manipulate with tones and octives with. Most of the so called great keyboard players play the keyboard so fast that it sounds like a guitar anyway.

By the way, you don't personally know Phil ....STFU

7Dime7MetalMassacre wrote:Pressing a fucking key or button requires no skill.

Press a fret, press a button... either way you're aiming to make a note, and you have to KNOW what note your making, right?

7Dime7MetalMassacre wrote: By the way, you don't personally know Phil ....STFU

How much you wanna bet on that, bub?

You're right that identical pitches are, well, identical. But there's certain things you can't really reproduce on a completely electronic instrument. In my opinion anyway.
There's little nuances that playing a "live" or "real" (for lack of a better term, no offense) instrument only provides you with. I guess you can "recreate" that on a computer/"electronic" instrument/programming module or some sort of sound engineering/creating program. I really don't know what you want to call that.
For the most part, with "electronic instruments" or whatever, a lot of tone color, style, etc is lost as compared to "real" instruments. This is all due to having a more "direct" contact or interaction with a "real" instrument. Sort of having it as a quasi-extension of your body and it creates sounds from even the smallest changes in your finger placement or change in your muscles in your face when your mouth is around a mouthpiece or the flick of a finger or wrist through a drumstick or whatever. "Real" instruments are much more dynamic in that sense and are more or less completely and instantly reactive to what your nervous system tells your appendages to do. This even includes mistakes as humans do make those.
With a completely processed or synthesized or electronic piece of music, my understanding is that it really isn't in "real time" or a lot of it is programmed, processed by the computer, etc. I can see where one might draw parallels with the whole live instrument thing and fretting versus the pushing of a button or whatever. But there just seems to be more emphasis on the processing of the sound or that the computer plays a bigger role than the human. It's sort of "dehumanized" music for me I guess. It's hard for me to explain and I haven't done a great job of doing so. One thing to compare it to is this message board. You can use all the smilies and punctuation and whatever else to try to represent or display human emotion in speech, but is that emotion REALLY conveyed or manifested in the same way it would be in actual speech/conversation between another human? I guess the human element is estranged somewhat, for me.

Music can be percieved however you want it to, one person hitting tin cans could be music to one person, while the sound of whales moaning can be to another. Ultimately its all music be it with electronic/live instruments, one or the other doesnt make it fake or real. I for one find making electronic music harder since i dont know any music theory to apply to a MIDI keyboard, yet i can write things on my guitar since i dont need any real music theory to play it.

I think electronic instruments are a case of being less mechanical and more cerebral. If you pick up a guitar, you are playing notes in real time but, beyond effects, the guitar pretty much plays like a guitar. There isn't much thinking about the timbre of the instrument or what you can and cannot do with the sound of it.

An electronic instrument has a lot more variables on what you do with that note or sound. There's a lot less technique and a lot more brainwork involved. Square Wave? Saw Wave? Pad? Attack? Decay? Filters? As I've said before it primarily a more compositional device than a live instrument but you can PLAY it as a live instrument if you are ambitious enough.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my friend completely improvises whole sets on a sequencer and synthisizer. He makes a beat in real time, loops it, plays a bass line, loops it, plays melody/harmony/comping lines, loops those, pulls them in and out, changes them, segues into other songs--the whole bit. I think a lot of "instrument purists" wouldn't have the first clue as to how to pull that off because instruments like a guitar or a drum set have a set purpose in a composition and are further limited by the mechanical limitations of their instruments. Regardless if you are doing power chords or sweep-picking 64th notes, you are generally only serving one function in the ensemble. A good electronic musician *is* the ensemble and it requires not only a great deal of physical dexterity, but a far, far more cerebral approach in general.

the thing is not a lot of people can play guitar good but any dead motherfucker can play a electronic instrument.

panera_cfh wrote:the thing is not a lot of people can play guitar good but any dead motherfucker can play a electronic instrument.

Which shows you are just as ignorant as your inability to spell your favorite band's name implies.

Pfl?yd wrote:

panera_cfh wrote:the thing is not a lot of people can play guitar good but any dead motherfucker can play a electronic instrument.

Which shows you are just as ignorant as your inability to spell your favorite band's name implies.

or he could just be a huge fan of bread.

tweek wrote:

Pfl?yd wrote:

panera_cfh wrote:the thing is not a lot of people can play guitar good but any dead motherfucker can play a electronic instrument.

Which shows you are just as ignorant as your inability to spell your favorite band's name implies.

or he could just be a huge fan of bread.

Hes prolly a huge fan of giving head

panera_cfh wrote:the thing is not a lot of people can play guitar good but any dead motherfucker can play a electronic instrument.

Just like any dead motherfucker can spell PANTERA, right?

I don't know the first thing about the programs or making the actual music but I am curious as to how it actually works.

BassPhemy wrote:I don't know the first thing about the programs or making the actual music but I am curious as to how it actually works.

It's entirely different, but with prior musical knowledge it's not impossible to wrap your head around.

Why couldn't you get Renoise to work?

It said I was missing some hardware or something.

Hardware? Damn. Never heard that before... crazy.

Hey, my computer runs on coal and cat hair.

NIN does some pretty wicked shit with electronics. That is my fav. in that genere. That evil beat in head like a hole is crazy

someday, i'll use reason to show yo' ass up and make u change your name to "quack"

To the OP: I wouldn't get the same satisfaction out of programming a song that comes from playing one, I guess that's the main difference for me. I guess to me, playing an instrument is awesome because you have to combine physical effort with knowledge. You seem to be an intelligent guy and you're probably very knowledgeable when it comes to music. If it's your thing, good for you man

Pfl?yd wrote:I think electronic instruments are a case of being less mechanical and more cerebral. If you pick up a guitar, you are playing notes in real time but, beyond effects, the guitar pretty much plays like a guitar. There isn't much thinking about the timbre of the instrument or what you can and cannot do with the sound of it.

An electronic instrument has a lot more variables on what you do with that note or sound. There's a lot less technique and a lot more brainwork involved. Square Wave? Saw Wave? Pad? Attack? Decay? Filters? As I've said before it primarily a more compositional device than a live instrument but you can PLAY it as a live instrument if you are ambitious enough.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my friend completely improvises whole sets on a sequencer and synthisizer. He makes a beat in real time, loops it, plays a bass line, loops it, plays melody/harmony/comping lines, loops those, pulls them in and out, changes them, segues into other songs--the whole bit. I think a lot of "instrument purists" wouldn't have the first clue as to how to pull that off because instruments like a guitar or a drum set have a set purpose in a composition and are further limited by the mechanical limitations of their instruments. Regardless if you are doing power chords or sweep-picking 64th notes, you are generally only serving one function in the ensemble. A good electronic musician *is* the ensemble and it requires not only a great deal of physical dexterity, but a far, far more cerebral approach in general.

Electronic music has great possibilities if used sparingly, but many times it is overdone. I have nothing against people who make music electronically as long as there are still phrases, rests, and cadences in the music. When it becomes chaos with no spaces or any relations between one section to another it boring.

As far as "playing" electronic instruments, I think there is skill required but many people lack musical taste that becomes second nature on a physical instrument because of the interaction you need to have with other musicians to make music sense you cannot play every aspect of music alone as well as the years and years of practice just to learn to play and the alread addressed flaws that these instrument possess(breaths, coordination, stretches ect.). In the end I don't see any reason why music has to be labeled "electonic" or "real" because loops and synthisizer can be useful in any application if there is an open mind.

Pfl?yd wrote:I think electronic instruments are a case of being less mechanical and more cerebral. If you pick up a guitar, you are playing notes in real time but, beyond effects, the guitar pretty much plays like a guitar. There isn't much thinking about the timbre of the instrument or what you can and cannot do with the sound of it.

An electronic instrument has a lot more variables on what you do with that note or sound. There's a lot less technique and a lot more brainwork involved. Square Wave? Saw Wave? Pad? Attack? Decay? Filters? As I've said before it primarily a more compositional device than a live instrument but you can PLAY it as a live instrument if you are ambitious enough.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my friend completely improvises whole sets on a sequencer and synthisizer. He makes a beat in real time, loops it, plays a bass line, loops it, plays melody/harmony/comping lines, loops those, pulls them in and out, changes them, segues into other songs--the whole bit. I think a lot of "instrument purists" wouldn't have the first clue as to how to pull that off because instruments like a guitar or a drum set have a set purpose in a composition and are further limited by the mechanical limitations of their instruments. Regardless if you are doing power chords or sweep-picking 64th notes, you are generally only serving one function in the ensemble. A good electronic musician *is* the ensemble and it requires not only a great deal of physical dexterity, but a far, far more cerebral approach in general.

Just as a person would have to dedicate their time to learning the ins and outs of the electronic equipment, a person would have to spend as much time getting used to the feel and subtle nuances of their technique in order to get the specific feel that they are looking for. So to say that a guitar just plays like a guitar doesn't really make sense, as the relationship between the hands and the instrument is organic; if you don't hit the string the way you want it, then it won't sound the way you want it. Just take a look at a classical guitarist's positioning. Everything the guy is doing is for a reason and to get a specific tonal quality.

warhead dime wrote:

Pfl?yd wrote:I think electronic instruments are a case of being less mechanical and more cerebral. If you pick up a guitar, you are playing notes in real time but, beyond effects, the guitar pretty much plays like a guitar. There isn't much thinking about the timbre of the instrument or what you can and cannot do with the sound of it.

An electronic instrument has a lot more variables on what you do with that note or sound. There's a lot less technique and a lot more brainwork involved. Square Wave? Saw Wave? Pad? Attack? Decay? Filters? As I've said before it primarily a more compositional device than a live instrument but you can PLAY it as a live instrument if you are ambitious enough.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my friend completely improvises whole sets on a sequencer and synthisizer. He makes a beat in real time, loops it, plays a bass line, loops it, plays melody/harmony/comping lines, loops those, pulls them in and out, changes them, segues into other songs--the whole bit. I think a lot of "instrument purists" wouldn't have the first clue as to how to pull that off because instruments like a guitar or a drum set have a set purpose in a composition and are further limited by the mechanical limitations of their instruments. Regardless if you are doing power chords or sweep-picking 64th notes, you are generally only serving one function in the ensemble. A good electronic musician *is* the ensemble and it requires not only a great deal of physical dexterity, but a far, far more cerebral approach in general.

Just as a person would have to dedicate their time to learning the ins and outs of the electronic equipment, a person would have to spend as much time getting used to the feel and subtle nuances of their technique in order to get the specific feel that they are looking for. So to say that a guitar just plays like a guitar doesn't really make sense, as the relationship between the hands and the instrument is organic; if you don't hit the string the way you want it, then it won't sound the way you want it. Just take a look at a classical guitarist's positioning. Everything the guy is doing is for a reason and to get a specific tonal quality.

You are reading into what I said wrong. You can have all the technique in the world but the timbral quality of the instrument is more or less the same. You can use effects to change that somewhat, but a guitar is a guitar is a guitar. It makes guitar-like sounds and, with some exceptions, it plays a certain role in the ensemble. A guitarist thinks about one aspect of ensemble playing, generally speaking. Whether he executes that role through strummed cowboy chords or hypertechnical neo-classical runs is neither here nor there.

An electronic musician is thinking more as a composer or arranger. There's a larger role involved there, but less "playing technique" involved. If it's close to any "normal" instrument, it would be a piano, which has a wider range of functions (at least simultaneously). Even then, there are multitudes of layers and timbral differences that one can approach with electronics than one does with a solitary instrument. So to say that a guitarist or a drummer or an oboe-player is more a musician than an electronic-music-ist is not only ignorant, it's completely false.

Pfl?yd wrote:

warhead dime wrote:

Pfl?yd wrote:I think electronic instruments are a case of being less mechanical and more cerebral. If you pick up a guitar, you are playing notes in real time but, beyond effects, the guitar pretty much plays like a guitar. There isn't much thinking about the timbre of the instrument or what you can and cannot do with the sound of it.

An electronic instrument has a lot more variables on what you do with that note or sound. There's a lot less technique and a lot more brainwork involved. Square Wave? Saw Wave? Pad? Attack? Decay? Filters? As I've said before it primarily a more compositional device than a live instrument but you can PLAY it as a live instrument if you are ambitious enough.

As I mentioned in the other thread, my friend completely improvises whole sets on a sequencer and synthisizer. He makes a beat in real time, loops it, plays a bass line, loops it, plays melody/harmony/comping lines, loops those, pulls them in and out, changes them, segues into other songs--the whole bit. I think a lot of "instrument purists" wouldn't have the first clue as to how to pull that off because instruments like a guitar or a drum set have a set purpose in a composition and are further limited by the mechanical limitations of their instruments. Regardless if you are doing power chords or sweep-picking 64th notes, you are generally only serving one function in the ensemble. A good electronic musician *is* the ensemble and it requires not only a great deal of physical dexterity, but a far, far more cerebral approach in general.

Just as a person would have to dedicate their time to learning the ins and outs of the electronic equipment, a person would have to spend as much time getting used to the feel and subtle nuances of their technique in order to get the specific feel that they are looking for. So to say that a guitar just plays like a guitar doesn't really make sense, as the relationship between the hands and the instrument is organic; if you don't hit the string the way you want it, then it won't sound the way you want it. Just take a look at a classical guitarist's positioning. Everything the guy is doing is for a reason and to get a specific tonal quality.

You are reading into what I said wrong. You can have all the technique in the world but the timbral quality of the instrument is more or less the same. You can use effects to change that somewhat, but a guitar is a guitar is a guitar. It makes guitar-like sounds and, with some exceptions, it plays a certain role in the ensemble. A guitarist thinks about one aspect of ensemble playing, generally speaking. Whether he executes that role through strummed cowboy chords or hypertechnical neo-classical runs is neither here nor there.

An electronic musician is thinking more as a composer or arranger. There's a larger role involved there, but less "playing technique" involved. If it's close to any "normal" instrument, it would be a piano, which has a wider range of functions (at least simultaneously). Even then, there are multitudes of layers and timbral differences that one can approach with electronics than one does with a solitary instrument. So to say that a guitarist or a drummer or an oboe-player is more a musician than an electronic-music-ist is not only ignorant, it's completely false.

Well it's a good thing that I never said that in my post.

I understand what you're saying. I think they are different schools of approach, but like I said before, regardless of which you're doing, you have to get used to your instrument and the nuances to be able to do it. Steve Morse, for example, is constantly switching his pickups, tone knob, volume control to get it at the right setting for what he wants. Is that much different than a guy twisting a knob on a keyboard to change the timbre of that note? It's the exact same principle. And the reason an electronic musician is playing the role of the composer is because he has the ability to do so with the equipment. If a person is playing a guitar, they can't be playing the drums and the bass at the same time. The only time I've seen a guitarist or bassist do layering similar to that is with a looping pedal. I understand the difference though, and never made a claim as to either side being above the other.

This is a corner of my "synthesist's" music room:









He's an electronic musician in every form of the word. It makes my brain hurt just looking at that stuff.

I'll stick to my strings and amps, I think!

Fuck. That's mental in every sense of the word.

Jesus Christ

I'm pretty sure I cannot fathom how one can be self-taught to use all that shit but he managed somehow. Next project: cold fission.

WANT! All that modular goodness AND a Jupiter?

I consider trying to work an Audio Generator just as complicated. Using a theremin too required some sort of skill, you just can't be like Jimmy Page and start molesting all these greats sounds out of it.

I think the Devo hat and alien head are appropriate.

programming music takes talent, yes, but you can't vary what you wrote when you press the play button live.

hektik wrote:programming music takes talent, yes, but you can't vary what you wrote when you press the play button live.

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that. It's not like whole soings are composed and you just hit and button and stand there. A lot of these guys are triggering small phrases live and changing them around and playing shit at the same time. It's pretty crazy!

CFH Eternal wrote:I consider trying to work an Audio Generator just as complicated. Using a theremin too required some sort of skill, you just can't be like Jimmy Page and start molesting all these greats sounds out of it.

Theremins are tricky devices. I've played a few and my bandmates each have a couple that are set up in different ways. You play purely by ear, there's no references anywhere. It's pretty wild.

It's about time that I plugged my friends' electronic music..

Cool breaks and melodies:

http://www.myspace.com/beatloafe

Braindance with ambient tendencies:

http://www.myspace.com/yogabber

Drum & bass/electronica with some jazzy instrumentation (the sax player from my band is on "winter sun")

http://www.myspace.com/djglp

hektik wrote:programming music takes talent, yes, but you can't vary what you wrote when you press the play button live.

http://www.ableton.com/